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Memory Alpha talk:Resource policy
Reference works "Greetings!" (Data, ) I would like to make a suggestion to add The Klingon Dictionary to the list of "Reference works created by production staff". It fulfills all required conditions. -- Klingonteacher (talk) 13:30, October 24, 2013 (UTC) :I'd like to note that there's currently a discussion on MA/de on whether to allow "Klingon spelling" from this book to appear in all sorts of articles. Even if we add this book to that list (I'm currently not sure if we should), it shouldn't mean that these information snippets can be added to articles here. -- Cid Highwind (talk) 14:20, October 24, 2013 (UTC) Danke, dass du mir in den Rücken fällst! (no offense, just kidding ;-) Yes, I admit that it was me who started that discussion, and I never intended to keep that a secret fact. Actually, I figured that it will not be easily possible to change the Resource Policy, so I didn't want to bother starting from that point again. On the other hand it seemed that the Klingon Dictionary might be at least accepted as an additional resource, so that at least we could add the Klingon information to the background information. That's the only reason I requested to add that specific book to the list. To be honest though, I will start the request about using the klingon spelling at a different place ;-) Please no comments about that here. -- Klingonteacher (talk) 17:43, October 24, 2013 (UTC) ::I, personally, have no issue with Klingon translations (etc) being used in the BG notes and only using the translations in the main text when they were used on screen. In that sense, it's much like any other piece of licensed material in that we can present it as "Book X stated Y". -- sulfur (talk) 17:47, October 24, 2013 (UTC) Supplementary materials :Moved from User talk:Sulfur... I'd like to draw your attention to a couple of confusing inconsistencies here: # @1 '' Star Trek Star Fleet Technical Manual'' is not written by a member of the production staff. Author Joseph never has been. Some portion were used by production staffers, but not created by them. It should IMHO be listed under item 4. (FYI, the franchise has officially debunked his work, along with several contemporary others of its kind, de facto demoting it to apocryphal status - ) # @4 Point3: "Any authorized non-fiction reference works (for example, blueprints)"; the example given is very confusing (especially since their is such a plethora of fan-ones), unless these concern blueprints of the actual sets, blueprints such as the Star Trek: The Next Generation USS Enterprise NCC-1701-D Blueprints or the cut-away posters are by definition fictional. A far better and more clear example would be The Physics of Star Trek # @4 Last five points; Should IMO been listed under item 3, even if not used they were produced by officially employed writers, script supervisors, producers, production illustrators, prop builders and the like. The last point even contradicts the heading of section 4 :)....For your consideration, Regards -- Sennim (talk) 14:34, July 4, 2014 (UTC) :In terms of item 1, it does denote "portions". Those portions (listed on the page of the item itself) were actually used (exactly as is) in Star Trek productions, so therefore, they are (by definition) perfectly acceptable to use. There is also a note about that on the page. I've linked directly to that section on the resource policy now in the hopes that it is clearer. I've not had a real chance to look at the other two items as yet, but will do so when I have a bit more time later (if posssible). -- sulfur (talk) 16:24, July 4, 2014 (UTC) I'm aware of this, but the point I was trying to make was that these portions (and there are really not that many) were lifted from Joseph's work and used after the fact, but not created by production staffers. I know it's just semantics, but is is in contradiction with the caption of the section "Reference works created by production staff", which Joseph never has been, and for the record, never has received an official credit for it either. If we leave the situation as is (which is fine by me, but I think it can be confusing for novices), then speaking from a consistency point of view, stuff like the Star Trek Spaceflight Chronology and certain materials from FASA's Star Trek: The Role Playing Game should be listed as well as some artwork lifted from these also made on-screen appearances...Surely, this can not be the intent? -- Sennim (talk) 17:16, July 4, 2014 (UTC) The Supplementary resources section needs to be clarified The Supplementary resources part of the Resource policy needs to be rewritten to clarify its meaning. The In-universe resources section makes it clear that categories 1, 2 and 3 are in descending order of precedence. The Supplementary resources section doesn’t mention any order of precedence, so it’s not clear if categories 1, 2, 3 and 4 are in descending order of precedence or if all the categories are equal. Category 1. Reference works created by production staff should be reworded to clarify that the 5 books listed below are the only books in the category as opposed to being examples of the category. Why is the Star Fleet Technical Manual listed here? It was not created by production staff. If the only parts of it that are accepted are the diagrams seen in the movies, then that's already covered by Visual material (what is seen), so the Star Fleet Technical Manual doesn't need to be listed. Why does category 4. Reference works created by non-production staff mention Star Trek: Star Charts and The Making of Star Trek, even though these were created by production staff? Either these books should be removed from the category or the category heading should be changed to All other reference books. Alternatively, the whole policy could be simplified by saying that a newer supplementary resource always supersedes an older supplementary resource. This eliminates the need for 4 categories and wouldn’t cause any problems for the wiki. NetSpiker (talk) 11:39, March 17, 2016 (UTC) :In regard to the second of your paragraphs, there is no order of precedence for the Supplementary resources section, as it doesn't say there is one. If there was one, it would say so. --Defiant (talk) 11:55, March 17, 2016 (UTC) Sulfur said there is an order of precedence. At least that's how I understood this quote: "No. I'm arguing that the order was determined that #1 only includes the specific items listed there." NetSpiker (talk) 12:10, March 17, 2016 (UTC) ::The order of precedence is 1, 2, 3, 4, etc. As in, if something is in #1, it trumps #4. That's the order. They are numbered for a reason, as opposed to being an unordered list. ::Do note that the book you keep parroting as being by Roddenberry, The Making of Star Trek: The Motion Picture, is actually by Susan Sackett, with comments from Roddenberry. Thus, it falls into category #3. ::For visual material from the Star Fleet Technical Manual, the book's images (that were used on screen) can be used for things that were not clear on screen due to the resolution/etc. ::I've put a minor rewording on a couple of items which should,. hopefully, satisfy your wording requests above. ::And no, newer doesn't always trump older. There's such a thing as a retcon. It happens all the time. -- sulfur (talk) 12:31, March 17, 2016 (UTC) Thanks for the changes. Newer material trumping older material is exactly what a retcon is. The only example I can think of where older material trumps newer material is how the line in Fury about Tuvok turning 100 is ignored in favor of the line in Flashback which says he was 29 years old in 2293. NetSpiker (talk) 13:43, March 17, 2016 (UTC) :::I'm in partial, but only partial, agreement with NetSpiker, in that I think that categories 1 and 2 should be switched IMHO; reference works were written after the fact (with the potential of mis-remembrances), whereas scripts and such were used during the fact. To me at least, it seems the more logical order of precedence: My two cents...--Sennim (talk) 15:37, March 17, 2016 (UTC) :I agree with that. --Defiant (talk) 15:53, March 17, 2016 (UTC) Even the final version of a script often has massive differences from the finished episode or movie, whereas a reference book written after the movie will be consistent with the movie. Furthermore, scripts are often hard for the average person to get. TOS, TAS, VOY and ENT scripts were never published and most are not even available on eBay. It is for these reasons that I have a very low regard for scripts. NetSpiker (talk) 01:40, March 18, 2016 (UTC) :::::This discussion seems built on confusion: the original poster essentially demanded that the policy is rewritten so it would fit their idea of how things ought to be, and Sulfur has already complied rewriting the precedence thing, stating that that's the way the policy always ought to have read. Not only do I think that's not a clearly true fact, but the supplementary resources parts of the policy only really deals with what to put in background sections anyway. What can be used to name unnamed things is instead specified in the in-universe resources section, which does not give further guidelines. It kinda makes sense that the supplementary resources section could help with that, but as the policy is written now that's an assumption people are making, not fact. If the policy needs to change it needs to change, but it seems people are arguing based on their own sometimes incorrect assumptions about what the policy already is is not helpful. The fact that this doubles as a free for all for pet peeves also doesn't help. I mean, how do retcons even figure into this? I'm not aware of any case where the STE or the star charts have retconned an ep, but since this discussion is ultimately only about which names might be used for unnamed things, I don't see how that plays into it. -- Capricorn (talk) 06:07, March 18, 2016 (UTC) Reformat #'Materials from a production:' #* Any writer/director's guide for a Star Trek series, aka "Writer's Bible" #* Any writer/director's technical manual for a Star Trek series, aka "Which Button Do I Push to Fire the Phasers?" #* Any scripts of a production, with the provision that spelling can be used, but will not take precedence over spelling seen on-screen #* Deleted or alternative takes of scenes from productions as compared to those from the most complete release, such as the difference between a remastered or director's cut when compared to an original or theatrical release #* Portions of sets, props, makeup, and costumes to the extent not seen on-screen in a production, even if they existed in real life WORDING HERE NEEDS TO BE CLARIFIED #* Film and television teasers, trailers, or other promotional material #* Materials from undeveloped projects and episodes, such as Star Trek: Phase II #* Any other behind-the-scenes or production material #'Materials from members of a production:' #* The Star Trek Encyclopedia #* The Star Trek Chronology #* The Star Trek: The Next Generation and Star Trek: Deep Space Nine Technical Manuals #* Information from the production staff, IE: or material add directly to MA from verified production staff #* Supplementary home video materials, such as audio or text commentary; anything that is not the production itself #* Closed-captioned dialogue, with the provision that spelling can be used, but will not take precedence over spelling seen in a script or on-screen #'Materials about a production:' #* The Star Trek: Star Charts #* Any documentaries or "making of" publications, such as The Making of Star Trek #* Portions of the Star Trek Star Fleet Technical Manual (seen on-screen) #* Any authorized non-fiction reference works, IE: the Star Trek Blueprints or #* Information from StarTrek.com not already covered Since this is under discussion, I figure I may has well throw my hat in as well. It's always kinda bugged me that there are 4 sections instead of three, since it really seems to boil down to above. None of this is what I would call a "final" draft, but I think this makes more sense, and like I said, it's been bugging me for awhile. - 03:51, March 18, 2016 (UTC) :Moving on to the next topic, I think Archduk3 's organization makes sense, but shouldn't Startrek.com be in the third section? They may have an exceptional amount of acces to production, but ultimately it's as much a separate operation as the star charts are. Also note that that reorganization would not help with the Vegan issue, the two options are on the same first tier. Also, Archduk3, since this has essentially no bearing on the other discussion (ie it's a good or bad idea regardless of what happens with the policy), would it may be more productive to move that to a separate section for clearness? -- Capricorn (talk) 06:07, March 18, 2016 (UTC) If you see a way to seperate this, I'm OK with it. I literally only suggested this because I was thinking about it last just a week ago. The order of items in the sections are pretty much cut and paste from the current list, and the wording and placement of these can, and should, be tweaked. That said, I placed StarTrek.com there based on its current placement in the policy, which might be left over from before they fired the original staff there. Parts of it would certainly fall under #2, but most of it now is definitely #3. - 06:49, March 18, 2016 (UTC) ::As I was part of the original discussions on creating this way back in the day, my minor edits were trying to clarify things up there. And yes, Archduk3 is right, the StarTrek.com placing is based on the old site, which was chock full of material from the actual production. The new site... isn't. Sadly, it's a lot more like a fan site now than it was. ::A fun wrinkle in all of this will be the newest version of the ''Encyclopedia when it comes out later this year. It's unclear how much will be changed in that and what it will include, and I worry that people are going to traipse in, viewing it as canon, and want to rename 90% of the articles based on it... :) -- sulfur (talk) 10:04, March 18, 2016 (UTC) :::Hence my original switching suggestion :-) In regard to the new Enc edition, my suspicion is that the Okudas, judging from what they have done on the last ed., will not change that much in existing copy...They have after all their hands full incorporating the missing info...Btw, I very much like Duke's new ordering system (including the demotion of StarTrek.com), and yeah, we probably should split off this particular discussion...--Sennim (talk) 10:25, March 18, 2016 (UTC) Split this off and did some work on the list, mostly updating the wording, order, and examples? Marked some wording that needs improvement too. To this day I have no idea what the tagged on bit of that sentence is suppose to mean. - 06:42, March 19, 2016 (UTC) ::The way I understand it, stuff that was created for a production, but ultimately not featured therein, due to scenes being trimmed and/or deleted, but you're right, would befit from more clarified writing. Some additional thoughts: ::*In regard to Star Trek.com: While the general production/in-universe stuff is currently indeed crap, there are still cast/staff profiles and interviews (the latter in particular) featured which are still very good and valid resource material; a separate, clarifying note perchance? ::*In regard to the Star Fleet Tech Manual: I think this should be knocked down a notch or three as well (-> section 2, below TNG manual) It is true that some portions were used, but it were not that many, whereas the rest is currently hopelessly outdated and more apocryphal that anything else. I'm aware of its revered status, but having it listed so high up the "foodchain", only reinforces the firm belief still held by some of the more, shall we say, starstruck fanboys, it being some sort of a "bible". ::*In regard to "documentaries or "making of" publications": I think these should be higher up (-> 2, under "Closed-captioned"), as these were almost indiscriminately made with the input of production staffers, some of them even (co-)written by them, the officially authorized/licensed ones in particular. Possible distinction between authorized/un-authorized (i.e. the Schuster & Schuster publications)? ::On a final note, while I was writing down the last note, it occurred to me, that some distinction between "in-universe" and "real world" might be beneficial, if feasible at all, ::*Section 1: purely "in-universe" ::*Section 2: Mixed ::*section 3: purely production POV ::Some thoughts...--Sennim (talk) 09:38, March 19, 2016 (UTC) :I see Sennin making a remark on moving something under "Closed-captioned". Sorry if I have been dim so far, but are the individual materials under each category supposed to be in order of preference too? Never even occurred to me that that might be the case :s :re the Star Fleet Technical Manual and Sennin's concern: I think it just needs a rewording. Currently the what's actually going on with the SFTM is only alluded too (very odd for a policy page). It would be better to just say that if a schematic from the SFTM was seen on-screen, the STFM can be used to look at it in more detail. It's just a special case of the "Portions of sets" list item. :re Archduk3's comment on tagged on the tagged on sentence, which sentence are you referring to? :re the sentence "Information from the production staff, IE: interviews or material add''ed'' directly to MA from verified archivists" - I take it that second part refers to those cases where production staff like for example Sussman have come to the site and started adding background factoids? Assuming that's the case, I think the sentence is a bit vague and could be clearer. How about "IE: interviews or material added directly to MA from verified production staff". :Also, and I've put this last but I think it's very important, one concern I'm having is this: the way the policy is currently written the list (be it the old one or a new one) is intended to regulate what factoids can be put in background sections. But in discussion above this one people are arguing that it should be used to determine to which noncanon names for unnamed things preferences should be given. I think the new list makes little sense for that purpose. Two examples: writer's bibles, which often differ significantly from how the setting and characters turned out, trump the encyclopedia. And Startrek.com, a favorite source of ours for planet names, sits at the same level (yet in the correct category) as the star charts which we've never dare think of using that way. Again, all those things are not remotely issues if the list is just for background information (and the order to put it in), but using such a list to name things is a completely different game. -- Capricorn (talk) 12:43, March 19, 2016 (UTC) A few brief replies before the longer ones: This list is for production POV material, so I don't see a way to note the difference between "in-universe" and "real world" here, and I'm a little unclear to what that was getting at. The order of materials in each category is not an order of preference per say, just an orderly list of the types of materials that would fall into the category. See "WORDING HERE NEEDS TO BE CLARIFIED" for the sentence with the weird tagged on bit. I'm assuming that it was added for a reason, I just can't fathom what that reason is if it's not for props that are real life products. If that's correct, it might be best to just state that separately right below. Please feel free to directly edit the list. I've moved the SFTM to section 3 since it's the same as the Star Trek Blueprints, in that parts of it were used on-screen but were not made for the production or by a member of a production. I've attempted to clarify the "on-screen" aspect too. This list isn't suppose to be a "what can be used for naming unnamed things and the order of preference." The "Tolerance in valid resources" further down in the policy states that conflicts can be resolved by siding with the material with a higher precedence, but not always. This was written for the defined precedence for material on-screen, but it also covers this list. I think that leaves deciding what material should be considered "more important" open to whichever side can make the better argument, and I tend to favor that over a defined list. I just don't like the idea of a list here stopping a consensus from being reached between conflicting material simply because at one time ST.com was a better site. - 18:02, March 20, 2016 (UTC) ::Disregard my "in-universe" and "real world" ramblings; overlooked the fact we were already in POV mode, my bad, sorry for the confusion...The list as now is however, can surely meet with my approval...Some additional suggestions though: ::@"WORDING HERE NEEDS TO BE CLARIFIED"-bit; suggest merging it with the directly above point, akin to something like this: ::* Deleted, alternative or trimmed takes of scenes from productions compared to the version as eventually featured, or compared to the most complete release of a production, such as the difference between a remastered or director's cut and an original or theatrical release; this includes (portions of) sets, props, makeup, costumes, special and visual effects [Personal note: stuff like D4 class (concept)], designed, produced and/or utilized for these scenes, but were ultimately not seen on-screen in a production as featured, or replaced in a later version of an original production. ::the "this includes (portions of) sets, props, makeup, costumes, special and visual effects, designed, produced and utilized for"-bit could also be added, or incorporated as examples in the "undeveloped projects and episodes"...should take care of the "NEEDS TO BE CLARIFIED", I think. ::@Scripts: Suggest this version: ::* Any scripts of a production, with the provision that spelling and subject/object designation can be used, but will not take precedence over spelling and subject/object designation seen or heard on-screen. Furthermore, final – as in the one actually adhered to for a production – draft versions take precedence in order of date over earlier ones.--Sennim (talk) 10:25, March 21, 2016 (UTC) Production sources used for naming things Maybe the next step could be to clarify what are valid resources for naming things under the Livingston clause. Currently, the policy just says "production sources". Startrek.com was used to name several species like Pentaran, but in the new supplementary resources policy it is actually at the VERY bottom of the list; so can it really be valid source for naming things. There also issues with the aliens from and, much more seriously, from like the Xelatians. For them the only source seems to be the Star Trek IV Sourcebook Update, which really is no production source in the traditional sense. Kennelly (talk) 13:06, June 8, 2016 (UTC) :ST.com is still a production source on the list, so it can still be used. This list is not meant to be the final say, it's meant to be the fairly common sense starting point. The numbered headings are the really important parts IMO. I'm not fimilar enough with the other issues to weigh in, but the bgnote seems to explain the source for the names from ST IV, so is the issue the lack of a mention here? I know there's still issues with Vegan/Rhaandarite name thing too. - 04:59, June 9, 2016 (UTC) Startrek.com is in the section "Materials about a production", which for me is an inferior category since it is maintained by people not involved at all in the actual production of the series/films. If I started working at startrek.com, I theoretically could invent all sorts of names for unnamed things and thus make them canon, is that really the intention? Regarding the ST IV issue, it seems for example the name of the Efrosians is derived from official publicity photos, which is valid I guess, but for the Xelatians FASA apparently just made it up? Kennelly (talk) 09:37, June 9, 2016 (UTC) Renaming quirk I was looking at the policy this morning and remembered being part of the creation of the very original policy (back when it was "MA:CANON"). The current text reads: :There are only two exceptions where material not directly seen or heard in an episode or film may be used in a section considered to be in-universe: :# To name items or people that were seen or referred to on-screen but not referred to by name, and :# For dating certain events in the Star Trek universe where no "hard" date was given. My recollection of the original discussions was that the intent was to allow the full names to come from the scripts or production sources when we either didn't have a name at all, or only had a portion of the name and ESPECIALLY when we wanted to avoid disambiguating the article title. So, I'd like to suggest a minor alteration here to meet that very original "dark ages" intent, specifically to allow or application of such production materials (still in the accepted order listed) to enable us to avoid possible disambiguations "Hill (Doctor)" vs "Richard Hill" and give people full names in the database, especially on article titles. Based on this, I'd like to also ask that we do not apply that clause to move (or un-move) articles until this discussion is complete. Thoughts welcome. -- sulfur (talk) 17:35, January 18, 2017 (UTC) :Many people may not be aware of a main character's scripted first name (such as Vincent DeSalle, who most would remember simply as "DeSalle") and wouldn't search for them as such. They would look for their last names. Last names, therefore, where no disambiguation page exists (as there's only one by that last name, real world or in-universe) should be maintained always as redirects, and the policy's revisions should state this. :Obviously this doesn't apply with Hill. It's worth noting that that particular page is the only hill with a bracket disambiguation. Hill itself is a redirect for "mountain". So there's no "Hill (lieutenant)", etc...--LauraCC (talk) 17:42, January 18, 2017 (UTC) ::Interesting, but mostly irrelevant for now, since this seems to be the edit where the "modern" wording originated. The implications and details of the original text is the question at hand. - 17:46, January 18, 2017 (UTC) With respect to Mr. DeSalle, using the search bar at the top, the first thing that comes up is "Vincent DeSalle". Then eventually if you have the whole "DeSalle" word typed out, it finally pushed to the redirect. With the search engine finally being halfway decent, I don't see as much of a need for the redirects. -- sulfur (talk) 17:54, January 18, 2017 (UTC)